Love-shyness 1- my experience with love-shyness

Required reading to understand this post better:

What is love-shyness?

My dating life in short

Horror stories with women- Part 1: First kiss, first pain

Please read this article. Not only is it extremely important but it is also a first article of a new direction this blog will be going – serious, studious articles on causes and consequences of incel. It may seem clunky at times. Try to understand why- not only does it describe a long time period and many events but the fact is that remembering all this is extremely traumatic and English isn’t my first language. I am sure I have missed many words or that my grammar was off at times. Yet, it is the crucial article in describing what caused my incel.

I have described love-shyness on one of the crucial pages on this blog. This is truly a crucial page on this blog and many stupid questions and even bans could be avoided if people read it.

There I described it as

Love-shyness is a specific type of sometimes severe chronic shyness that impairs or prevents intimate relationships. It implies a degree of inhibition and reticence with potential partners that may be sufficiently severe to preclude participation in courtship, marriage and family roles.[3] According to this definition, love-shy people may find it difficult if not impossible to be assertive in informal situations involving potential romantic or sexual partners. For example, a heterosexual love-shy man may in some cases have trouble initiating conversations with women because of strong feelings of social anxiety.

I’d say that 100 percent love-shy people are unable to do three things:

1. Approach a member of the opposite sex with romantic intent, even in the case of knowing that the result will not be a rejection.

2. Make romantic/sexual initiative towards a person you know without that person doing anything like that first, even in the case of knowing that the result will not be a rejection.

3. Unable to reciprocate romantic/sexual interest of others, ie they are often afraid to reciprocate indicators of interest.

For these reasons I think that it is nonsense to say that love-shyness is a mere social phobia. It is a much more narrow phobia and should be treated as such.

I also distinguished love-shyness and social phobia. People often confuse the two but they’re really not the same thing.

What isn’t love-shyness(!)

Inability to

1. Talk to members of the opposite sex when not taking romantic/sexual initiative without being horribly anxious
2. Make initiative to get to know better a member of the opposite sex they already met without romantic/sexual intention
3. Make a cold approach to a member of the opposite sex without romantic/sexual intention

are not signs of love-shyness but social phobia.

I won’t be talking about this definition here or any of the works connected to love-shyness. This will be done in a second part on love-shyness.

What I will be talking about here are my experiences with it.

PRELUDE TO LOVE-SHYNESS

Brian Gilmartin, in his 1987 work on love-shyness, mentioned, among others, three characteristics common for boys who will became love-shy. These are

1. very early childhood interest in girls, much earlier than in boys who will grow up to be non love-shy
2. interest in, even a fixation with beautiful female faces in romantic context
3. being bullied

First two weren’t actually important for my development but I’ll say something about them anyway as I think that the reader might find it interesting.

I remember “falling in love” as early as in kindergarten (in fact, I have vivid memories of my very early days, including my first day in kindergarten). I even remember the name of the little girl I was first “in love with”. I also remember one event in which I prepared some sort of gear filled with accessories common for kids, like chewing gums and toys, to go and premeditatedly “molest” two girls I had my eye on. I can still remember my feelings while preparing to go to them. It was certainly some kind of childish proto-seduction. I’d interrupt these girls during their play and tease them. Anybody observing me during that time would likely be shocked to learn what I’ll become later.

My early interest in girls continued throughout the first years of elementary school. Both in kindergarten and early years of elementary school I displayed a second characteristic common for boys likely to become love-shy – I would always be fascinated with a girl who had the prettiest face. If one could round up all the girls in a kindergarten group you could recognize the one I liked by searching for the one whose face would be commonly seen as the most beautiful one. Amazingly, and seemingly paradoxically, me and many other love-shy men started developing interest in girls many years before our peers who’d later turn out to be normal.

Of course, it was still way too early to make any kind of advances, yet alone form any relationships, so it is pointless to compare such early childhood with years when I was already a teen but I don’t think I was love-shy during that time. Or, to explain this better, I don’t think I’d become love-shy by my teens if I had stayed that way until that time. Unfortunately, I didn’t.

HOW AND WHY I BECAME LOVE-SHY

Third characteristic of love-shy men mentioned by Gilmartin which I decided to talk about here was bullying. It was bullying. I don’t think bullying was a huge factor in me losing interest in girls since the real reasons behind this were more about my mind turning to other things. I was a very intelligent, curious child and since the age of 10 I developed various different interests. Sounds kinda funny, but, yeah, at the age of around 10 I started turning away from “women” for the first time in my life. I developed interests in things like geography, soccer and even politics.

How, then, did the bullying effect my love-shyness and made the return of my interest in girls, now with real stakes in play, a sordid and horrible thing?

Bullying achieved that by effectively removing me from any girls. It made me hang out with dorky, unpopular kids- not a bad thing in itself, because they much better people than the cool kids. The problem, however, was that there were no girls in this group. All the girls were either members of the “cool kids” or had their own separate group based on various different criteria I won’t go into now.

This meant not only that I was absolutely unable to gain my first romantic and sexual experiences with girls during elementary school (by the age of 15) but that I was unable to even learn basic interaction with them.

I was probably love-shy by the age of 13 but it started to matter only once I developed an interest in girls. This was when I turned 15. In any case, by the time it did start to matter I already had an extreme and severe phobia for years. This phobia was to rob me of my youth and, as it seems now, ultimately my life.

LOVE-SHYNESS STARTS DESTROYING MY LIFE AND FUTURE- “THE BIG THREE”

During summer of 2003, which was the summer between elementary school and high school, I started thinking about girls. But what was I to do? I had no female friends at all. I exchanged a few sentences with girls in my entire life. My love-shyness couldn’t even be seen in action yet – the entire idea of having a girlfriend seemed as unimaginable and unrealistic as being in a relationship with a unicorn.

That summer, despite the fact that I was nervous about the upcoming start of high school, was the actually the last really happy and sane period of my life. The sole reason for that was that girls were still, for the last time in my life, something that wasn’t bothering me.

As high school started things got much worse. Of course that there was no way for me to have a girlfriend there. It was hardly about my phobia. That school just wasn’t the right place for that anyway and I know I’d never had a girlfriend there even if I were the most normal kid around. There were no other ways for me to meet girls and I started feeling extremely bad.

During that time somebody told me to try SMS dating services. I have never heard of those before and decided to try them out. It turned out that the one I tried was full of girls. Unfortunately, I was so stupid and childish back then that it took me several months to even realize that messaging girls from other locations than my own was pointless. When I finally did start to ignore every girl not from my town was when love-shyness started playing its role at last.
I simply had no courage to meet any of these girls in real life !

I missed three crucial changes in 2004. First one came in April. This was the first chance I had to go on a date with a girl in my lifetime. Needless to say, I blew it. I was too shy to even consider meeting her in real life. I told her we can only be friends and she got angry, telling me stop pitying myself. She didn’t understand the problem nor could she and my first great chance was gone.

But this was just the beginning. It was soon to get much worse. I soon met another girl, who was very promiscuous – by the age of 17 she had slept with 50 men and 2 women. Her second or third message was “Let’s meet up and have sex”. What was something most other boys dreamed of at that age scared the hell out of me. I was so messed up at that time I threw the cell phone under the couch ! In retrospect, I think it would have been better if it stayed there. Instead I did contact her later and we’d talk occasionally for the next 9 months. It would be much better if it ended that spring day when she proposed sex because it never went anywhere. I could never bring myself to meet her in real life.

Shockingly, the culmination of this insane phobia was still around the corner and happened in autumn of 2004. A tragic event which was to follow effectively end all of my chances until 2006, in fact more likely 2007.

I met this girl in October 2004 and everything seemed too good to be true. In any case, it was too good to be true because I never made it true. This girl was so good to me. She’d convince me to see her week after week. She wanted to go ice-skating, she wanted a lot of stuff. But she couldn’t get any of that unless we were to meet and had no courage for that. So I’d ignore her for weeks at time, not knowing what to do with her and her eagerness. At one point I simply told her I’m too scared, to which she replied that she understands but there is nothing to be scared about and that she will help me.
I never gave her a chance to do that. I was messed up beyond belief. She didn’t give up until late January of 2005. Her last message wasn’t a goodbye message at all. She still had hope and told me “Send me a message when you’ll be able to”.
I never did.

This was the end of my first chances with women, and also the end of what was almost certainly my greatest set of opportunities to beat incel at this young age. It didn’t happen because of love-shyness. My phobia was strong enough to be terrified of meeting girls who weren’t more than 16 or 17 years old. That last girl, the one who tried so hard to make me see her in real life, WAS AN EIGHTH GRADER.

And so it ended for a long time, with me being fucked up enough to be terrified of girls who were eighth graders.

Nothing else happened in 2005. I was still not only completely love-shy but also a kissless virgin who had no experiences with women whatsoever.

FIRST BREAKTHROUGHS BUT THE PHOBIA CONTINUES

Some improvement was finally achieved in 2006. I did turn 18 as a kissless virgin who’s never been on a date but not long after that some things started to change.

For one, I managed to have my first date ! I owe the fact that I finally broke the ice and managed to see a girl I met on that SMS flert thing to nothing but alcohol. During 2005 and first part of 2006 I used to talk to several girls I’d meet on that SMS Flert but it was nothing important or comparable to girls from 2004 I’ve described here. One of them was a girl who I whined to about never having a girlfriend while being completely drunk during one warm Saturday night in spring 2006. While I was doing this she suddenly asked me if I wanted to meet tomorrow and my inhibitions were low enough to accept her offer.
Next day I was nervous to the point of being sick and almost fainted from fear while waiting for her. But I didn’t bolt and she arrived. The ice was broken any my first date had begun.
This date was an utter failure. The girl was really vapid, ugly and had rotten, crooked teeth. I didn’t like her at all and her horrible teeth set a pattern that will last for a lifetime- no matter how desperate I am I will never want a girl with bad teeth. She was actually a nice, decent person but I was extremely repulsed by her.
I came home that day feeling disgusted by her and we never saw each other again but I was finally able to meet a girl in real life.

Today I see it happened way too late. It didn’t seem so at the time. After all, I had just turned 18. However, future events were to show me that it was too late. Of course, I was completely oblivious to this fact at this very early point.

My second date, with a different girl, happened about a month later and was also unsuccessful but love-shyness played no part in it being a failure.

However, it was to play a huge part about 2 months later, though I now think it was hardly a deciding factor. In any case it highlighted that my love-shyness remained and was still going strong – unsurprising, as merely being able to find courage to meet girl in real life couldn’t have had any direct influence on my inability to make romantic advances. It’s not like these girls were making any towards me so I remained frightened as I was before. Finally seeing some women in real life changed nothing about that nor could it unless they actually took the initiative (which was to happen in about an year, read on).

LOVE-SHYNESS ON A DATE

I started talking to this girl in spring of 2006, even before getting my first kiss. Her story is described here in greater detail so I’ll just focus on how love-shyness affected how our dates looked like.
Simply put, my love-shyness was the main reason why we never kissed at all until the very end and why the fact that she claimed she liked me (which was quite foolish, as she told me this before we ever met) never meant anything at all. Factors like her lack of experience or lack of chemistry between us didn’t matter that much. First one was almost irrelevant because most girls, even experienced ones, want the guy to initiate things. As for our lack of chemistry, it was to preclude us from ever having a relationship in the end but it couldn’t explain why we never kissed during the two summer dates we had or my reaction during the third date, which we had in September.

So, basically, what happened was that we met on our high school forum and talked throughout the spring of 2006. I’d sometimes see her in school but she’d always be with her classmates and I’d be with mine so we never talked. When the school year ended I proposed a meeting but never thought we could me anything more than friends. I didn’t like her physically nor did we ever talk about anything related to anything more than a friendship.
Which is why her declaration that she likes me, done to a person she never met in real life, was such a shock. Today I’d understand that this is childish nonsense but then I really believed that somehow we’ll be together.

It was never to be. There was, like I said, no chemistry, but what matters to telling a story about love-shyness is how that aspect affected our dates.
During our first date I never came close to touching her at all. We didn’t even shake hands. Any thoughts of hugging and kissing her were like thoughts of visiting a foreign planet. The fear was too strong. We didn’t even shake hands.
Our second date, two weeks later, was quite similar. What changed is that we both had a beer during the date, as if that would change anything. As the date ended we finally hugged, which she initiated, but it looked more like a friendly hug.
I remember sitting on a street that hot July day in 2006 and thinking if I will ever be normal.

During that summer I managed to experience my first kiss… or was it? The event was quite traumatic and did nothing at all to relieve my love-shyness. It amounted to a single peck on the lips while I was very drunk, followed by a tense, scandalous, sordid and downright stupid remainder of the night, as the girl was kissing my friends five minutes later and I got jealous. We forgot all about it two days later and none of us ever saw that stupid trashy cunt again. Back to the girl I was talking about previously.

Our last date, which happened in September 2006 (see more details in the article I provided), was the culmination of the phobia.
Of course, once again nothing happened during the date. As it neared its ending we finally sat down in a park and I thought that this was it… I have to kiss her. I still couldn’t. In the end she kissed me, or more like tried to – I was shocked enough to pull my head away. She tried again and this time I could barely contain my fear and shock enough not to pull away again but I froze completely and was unable to move my lips or tongue, not only my head.
The epilogue of the story is described in the article but, to make the long story short, she no longer wanted to be with me, if she ever even did.

LOVE-SHYNESS STILL GOING STRONG – A WARNING AND A PREDICTION OF A YOUNG GIRL

I had no more dates until the spring of 2007. That time was sort of a transition – I got a new cell phone from another network and didn’t try their SMS flert so I gave online dating a try for the first time in my life and found it to be a disaster at that time (this was years before that dating forum I’m using now started functioning).

When I finally did have a date it was with an elementary school senior, while I was an high school senior. Despite being only 14 and thereby 5 years older than me this girl already had sexual experience and was unimpressed with my fears. We probably wouldn’t share any kisses at all if she didn’t ask me to. I did it but was clumsy and pathetic. My inexperience was so obvious in everything I did with her. I tried to use my hands but almost ended up messing up something in her hair. Her breasts or vagina were out of the question.
She told me that I’m already very, very late and that in big trouble. She continued by saying that things will only become harder for me as I grow older. This 14 year-old girl was honest and told me what so many crazy TAC monsters decades older than her deny. I will never forget these words for they will prove so correct.
I felt incredibly sad after this date. She didn’t reject me that very night but it happened soon enough and we never had a second date.

LOVE-SHYNESS AND A 2007 TRAGEDY

Love-shyness didn’t play a huge part in 2007 tragedy (of which there is yet no article but read some about it here). The main protagonist of that story, who I call The Fatal One, was aggressive enough for me to experience kissing and petting very soon and even initiate it with her soon after.
It did, however, play some part. I was unable to kiss The Fatal One during our second date though she begged me to. During this a man was passing by, walking a dog. He saw is an awkward position on park bench, me sorta hugging her and shouted at me “Kiss her!”. All he achieved was that I moved my hands away from her for a while.
Two days later everything went much better and we kissed for hours. However, other reasons have turned this into a tragedy.

Much later, in May 2008, I found out she did have a problem with my behavior that day, though it didn’t influence what happened later. She was simply unable to understand why I couldn’t kiss her at the time, just like she was unable to understand why I was suffering because of her now.
“Why can’t you just approach some girl in a bar?”, she asked.
“You just don’t understand, do you?”, was all I could mutter in a reply.
“No, I don’t!”, was her annoyed retort.

And so it was. Despite being my last real opportunity in life she wasn’t able to understand this at all. Some months later, when I was detained over a non-existent death threat I made to this girl I was taken to psychological evaluation. The shrink was interested in why I was unable to find another girl after her for almost an year. I described love-shyness and what it does. She took some notes and just looked at me with a concerned expression on her face.

Love-shyness was a huge part in me not being able to find anybody after her, which would help me get over her. Also, a huge part in that event being a tragedy was just how aggressive this girl was. She was my last realistic chance of ever being a normal person. I didn’t see it then but that is how it turned out later. I know I could have had a relationship with her, which we already started in July 2007. We could have had sex in that relationship as well. I am emphasizing the sex part though it may sound like something that shouldn’t be mentioned specifically and is a normal part of a relationship because of what will happen once I do find my first girlfriend.

LOVE-SHYNESS CRIPPLES A RELATIONSHIP, POSSIBLY DESTROYING IT

Love-shyness took its final blow during my first relationship. I also considered it its worst blow for a while but am now convinced that the worst harm was done much earlier, in 2003 and 2004.

Love-shyness almost ensured this relationship never happening. Due to this girl being shy and inexperienced she took no initiative during our first two dates so I simply decided not to bother anymore. However, unlike in the case of that 2006 girl, this time there was some chemistry, in this case mostly intellectual.
This was why we did continue seeing each other after some months of me ignoring her.

The phobia was still strong. I was unable to kiss her during the next 2 dates, which happened in a public place. My solution was to finally take her somewhere where we’ll be alone but even so I knew that I couldn’t be sure that things will end up well. We went to a big house my aunt lived from time to time when she’d return from working abroad. It was empty at the time.
We were lying on the bed and talking. We both knew it was likely now or never. Not doing anything now, when she was alone with me in an empty house, would probably mean that we wouldn’t see each other again. However, unlike any of the girls before her, she knew about my problem. It was just that she was shy.
“I wish the Fatal One were here”, I said, both honestly and jokingly . “She’d jump me right now”.
“But she’s not here” was the reply I got.

Time was going by and I had no idea what to do. I was scared like hell again. Things might have been better if it weren’t for the fact that my last kiss before that happened on July 6, 2007 and this was November 21, 2009- almost two and a half years had passed !
Eventually I told her that we’ll maybe feel more comfortable if we both put our heads on a huge pillow the bad had. So we did and there, in complete dark, I was finally able to kiss her.
In the end the day went well and we were able to start a relationship. But this is also where the disastrous part started.

When you narrow it down our relationship had a problem contained in one short word – sex. We stared talking about it as early as December, 2 weeks into our relationship, but never got to any specifics. I told her I want to do it and she didn’t mind but we never had a very serious discussion about it. We were both virgins and had no idea how to break the ice.

Weeks turned to months and nothing was happening. If anything, I received a setback in February 2010. During that time it was very cold here and she’d always come with two shirts on. I’d take one of them off but when I asked her to take the second off she became moody and snappy, declining to do this and going into a rant about how it will be even more painful once we break up if we have sex.
While we did seem to straighten that out a few days later it was a really disheartening event.

Time went on. In February I thought that we will surely have sex by around Easter. But Easter passed and nothing happened, just like in the weeks later.
All we ever did was kiss and dry hump. There was no way for me to initiate taking our clothes off. Unfortunately, neither could she.
By late spring we were topless a few times but going below the waist line remained something we couldn’t dare to try. I was getting more and more sad and frustrated but believed it will happen one day.

As it turned out, it never did. In July 2010 she left me. Her reasons were seemingly unrelated to sex and had to do with her feeling unhappy and unfulfilled in the relationship. In fact, they were mostly about sex. Failure to have sex with her turned me into a worried, sullen and nervous person and that’s what drove her away (bear in mind, her story will be described in much more detail one day – I am talking about the parts that have to do with love-shyness). Would it be any different if we did sex? I don’t know. But just losing my virginity with her would have been a huge step. But it never happened.

At the age of 22 my first relationship without me beating love-shyness or having sex. I was beyond devastated. Curing love-shyness now seemed further than ever. After she left me my life turned into utter hell. I became a half-mad, broken, angry creature I have remained until today.

LOVE-SHYNESS IS FINALLY DEFEATED- TOO LITTLE, TOO LATE

I eventually defeated my love-shyness in 2011, not long before I turned 23. It was unceremonious and too late to really make a difference at this point.

It happen at a very symbolical place – a graveyard. I was with a girl I met on SMS Flert. I found her completely unattractive and this helped me kiss her first. What helped even more was the fact that I have had enough. I have had enough frustration and failure. It went extremely well – she was very responsive and all over me.

After finally defeating this phobia I felt baffled by the fact that something that now seemed so trivial was destroying my life for so long. I was almost 23- I had this phobia for almost 8 years and now it was gone.

But even with her I didn’t manage to lose my virginity, though for different reasons – she didn’t want it. That I did decide to meet with her for 2 more months, before she broke it off, was a good notion of how desperate I was for any companionship.

Once she broke it off it was time for me to look back and see my situation for what it was.

CONSEQUENCES OF THE DISASTER

While the phobia itself was now defeated my situation was catastrophic and remained until today.

I was a virgin for over an year after defeating it. The notion of trying anything in real life, in places like pubs and clubs, was not an option. There was no longer any fear but I knew I was too clumsy and inexperienced to get girls there.

When I finally did lose my virginity in May 2012 it was much too late for that too. Since then I had one short relationship with an unstable girl who later turned out to be a lesbian and unfulfilling friends with benefits relationship with a girl I was disgusted with and who later ended up in a mental hospital for her own problems.

Love-shyness destroyed most of my opportunities during the vital time from 2004 to 2010. Getting rid of it in 2011 was years too late. For what was I to do now? My vital chances, situations when not being love-shy could have made a difference were, with the exception of my first girlfriend, gone by early 2005.
There was no way for me to start approaching random women in bars just because I kicked the phobia. I had no skills to do it. I was at least 7-8 years behind most of my peers and that fact was obvious regardless of me being love-shy or not. Getting rid of love-shyness couldn’t have changed much because dates were still dependent on chemistry. It was simply too late. The vital chances were gone.
In 2012 and 2013 I suffered setback after setback despite no longer having this phobia. Losing my virginity could make no difference for I was too old.

Who failed to understand the problem? Who failed to provide adequate help when there was still time, or ever? It were my parents and therapists.

MY PARENTS

The post explaining why my parents are monsters is yet to come. Still, the crux of it will be described here.
My parents laughed at my problem ever since I was 15. At that age they told me that I will be chased by girls by the time I turn 18. It was a laughable idea that I didn’t believe in and of course it never happened.
They refused to even acknowledge the fact that I had this problem.

If they could understand the problem they would have tried what I call The Prostitute Scam. . In this scam they would have hired a prostitute to live as a tenant in our building and pretend to seduce me. This should have been done when I was 14 or 15 for two crucial reasons- 1. It was necessary for me to lose this phobia as early as possible 2. By the age of 15 I started trying those SMS flerts. It was necessary for me to meet these 3 girls in 2004 experiences with whom I described here for every one of them might have been my salvation.

Let me be clear about one thing- it was essential for things to happen that way and not in any other way. If you did read this long story you should be now know the answer to the question of why it was impossible for me to see a woman I knew was a prostitute – I’d freak out ! I was unable to meet teenage girls in real life until I was 18, do you think I’d be able to see a prostitute?! . This approach would, of course, be risky and expensive. I might have been shocked by her trying to seduce me. Many things could have gone wrong. But it was the only hope for me to evade what happened later.
As for its price no matter how expensive it wouldn’t be as expensive as all the problems I had later because this wasn’t done.

But my parents never did anything like that. Instead the allowed me to live with this life destroying phobia for many years to come. And for that they are responsible. Think about this the next time you defend them. Think about what they did. They allowed me to be frightened of teenage girls. They are child abusers and monsters. Don’t ever forget that.

THERAPISTS-

In fact, therapists could have helped. Of course, their help would not have been what TAC monsters claim it should have been. Let me say a few words about what standard therapy did in my case – IT DID NOTHING.
Therapists were completely unable to understand this problem. They didn’t even classify it as a social phobia (which would also be wrong as the definition of love-shyness clearly differentiates it from a social phobia). They just said it was something I had to deal with on my own. They had no idea how to help me with this at all.

An informed, reasonable male therapist would wing me. An informed, reasonable female therapist would offer me sex. This they never did and I was left to deal with this crippling condition on my own, with disastrous consequences.

SOME SORT OF CONCLUSION

Love-shyness destroyed my life. It made me unable to take action which would change my situation during the vital teenage years and continued to do so later.
It was a ruinous factor in all kinds of situations- from meeting girls in real life to dates and eventually a relationship itself.
It was the main cause of my incel from 2003 to 2010. Once I did defeat it it was too late for me because the objective situation changed and became much worse for me.
Today it is no longer the cause of my incel but I think it is safe to say that it caused a self-perpetuation of incel which lasts until today.
My parents and therapists did nothing to solve or even understand the problem. In fact, they are still unable to understand it.

And thus ends my first part of the series on love-shyness. Two more parts are to follow, on other issues connected to love-shyness and its understanding, treatment and consequences. Hope you enjoyed this post.

MODERATION NOTE- this post describes some extremely difficult and traumatic emotional states and events. Any denying that love-shyness exists without very good argumentation, any trivializing or mockery will be deleted and such posters moderated or banned. I don’t care if you’re a long time regular or a first time poster who accidentally found the blog. If you can’t be a sensitive, reasonable human try being be a scumbag on some other place online where I can’t moderate you – there is so many of them.

18 thoughts on “Love-shyness 1- my experience with love-shyness

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  6. I have a very specific issue with your post, and that is what you consider “an informed reasonable therapist”.
    It is unethical and illegal for a therapist to do what you what you called “reasonable”. No therapist should ever become sexually involved with a client.

      • I am from the US, so I use American standards of medical ethics. The American Association of Psychiatrists and the American Mental Health Counselors Association both agree that it is a grave breach of ethical standards to get involved sexually with patients.

        The issue is of consent in this case is two fold. A) you were under 18, which would be statuary rape since you were a minor. B) The therapists is is a position of power. You cannot give fully free consent in that position, and even if you as an individual could the therapist has no way knowing who is capable overcoming that power dynamic and giving full volitional consent and who is not. Therefore in the best interest of safeguarding the vulnerable patient who cannot give full and free consent a therapist is duty bound to avoid all such relationships.

        • Why are you telling me all of this? I am not from America so none of this applies there. We don’t have that association and for example, not even all of America has an age of consent of 18, let alone my country. Similar with this position of power thing – it’s not like that here, where it is seen as a sort of a contract more than a situation of one side having more power.

          But let’s play along – do you have any other idea as to how to help patients who are LS? Keep in my mind, I am aware that LS isn’t a recognized disorder (phobia), so I mean patients who formally come for other reasons but are LS.

          • Well first you would have to get the patient to admit it…something tells me getting a person to admit in real life that they are LS or incel is a bit of a challenge….call me skeptical. Anyway assuming this patient admitted they were love shy I would probably think the most logical choice it seems would be controlled exposure therapy. If its a specific phobia, and it seems like the way it is defined it is. Then you can use things like skype and roll plays to help the person slowly increase their exposure to the opposite sex in conversation with the ultimate goal of course being working up to talking to a real human female in the flesh. If incel is not just about sex, as I have heard you claim about a billion times. Then the therapy should not just be focused on sex. It should be about how we talk to someone else and extend ourselves, a kind of specialized social anxiety or a social phobia. I know you hate drugs, but medication might also be an option if the patient was open to exploring that avenue to treat their anxiety.

            • Well first you would have to get the patient to admit it…something tells me getting a person to admit in real life that they are LS or incel is a bit of a challenge….call me skeptical.

              Oh, that is absolutely true.

              And you know why is that? Due to a violent, hateful campaign to stigmatize and shame all those who are LS incels or just pure incels. And when you take the fact that most of those participating in it are liberal lunatics who worship therapy as if it is a deity it is entirely understandable, at least to reasonable people, why LS/incel people are reluctant to even see a therapist, let alone talk to one about their LS/INCEL???!!! Especially when LS isn’t a medical diagnosis thought it should be while incel shouldn’t be a medical diagnosis but the problem is that they won’t take it seriously because it isn’t.

              Plus most therapists in US are feminists/leftists/liberals, which means they can only do harm in dealing with pretty much any problem. Who would tell such freaks that they even have this problem? In fact, any problem? Nobody sane.

              Anyway assuming this patient admitted they were love shy I would probably think the most logical choice it seems would be controlled exposure therapy. If its a specific phobia, and it seems like the way it is defined it is. Then you can use things like skype and roll plays to help the person slowly increase their exposure to the opposite sex in conversation with the ultimate goal of course being working up to talking to a real human female in the flesh.

              I can’t imagine any therapist doing that here. And it seems more like a job for a life coach or something. In any case, what do you mean by “talking to”? LS people need to do beat their phobia of much more than talking. Not being able to merely talk isn’t LS.

              If incel is not just about sex, as I have heard you claim about a billion times. Then the therapy should not just be focused on sex.

              No, one doesn’t follow from the other. Such conclusion doesn’t necessarily follow. Just because something isn’t just about x it doesn’t mean it can’t mostly be treated by x. from this. You’re not talking to a moron who will fall for cheap fallacies like these. How unfortunate for you.

              And you’re approaching this from a completely wrong perspective anyway.

              I am not saying that the therapy for LS should consist of sex. I am saying that there is no therapy at all. That there is none regardless of it being a medically recognized diagnosis or not. There simply isn’t anything that a therapist might do. Some other people- yes, therapist no. I had an idea how to help those with LS but it was rejected by almost everybody (but not everybody) and laughed at. So if this isn’t implemented therapists can only help with sex and that alone would do practically everything to break down the phobia.

              It should be about how we talk to someone else and extend ourselves, a kind of specialized social anxiety or a social phobia.

              And a therapist might help with that? Nonsense.

              I know you hate drugs, but medication might also be an option if the patient was open to exploring that avenue to treat their anxiety.

              I don’t hate drugs or psychiatrists. I hate the cult that modern scumbags have created around them. But the fact that even some psychiatrists (not you, I don’t know if you’re one) believe I hate these things by themselves is a good indication that such people are as dumb as basically everybody else. Anyway, once again, which meds might these be? Regular anti-anxiety meds? It’s a bit more complicated than that.

              • “I can’t imagine any therapist doing that here. And it seems more like a job for a life coach or something. In any case, what do you mean by “talking to”? LS people need to do beat their phobia of much more than talking. Not being able to merely talk isn’t LS.”

                Again we are in different countries from each other, but I know at least in the country that I am in therapists do perform controlled exposure therapy. LS as I know it is the inability to initiate and maintain romantic relationships, even when the person is entirely positive that there is mutual interest in such relationships. The first step to maintaining or starting a romantic relationship is speaking to someone. You mention rather frequently that you would speak to girls at length over SMS flert services, but where then too scared to meet the female in person as a younger man. So it seems you at least, and I suspected many LS teens did suffer form an inability to speak to living females. You also wrote elsewhere on your blog that therapists could offer a service where they bring in females that teach LS patients how to “kiss and cuddle as for many this would be their first experience with such things”. Again this would be therapy aimed at normal social contact, much like helping someone with OCD learn to touch objects they view as dirty.

                Okay I want to question a statement you said, “I don’t hate drugs or psychiatrists.” You have stated multiple times that drugs are a way of numbing the masses to a natural reaction and that people who work in mental health should be charged with murder for their failure to provide clients with the help you think they need, which in this case seems to be actively having sex with their clients. For someone who claims to be okay with the use of psychiatric drugs. Calling them a form of social control and the people who prescribe them murders seems a very strong statement. If you think someone is a murderer why do you not hate them? It would seem to follow naturally that you would hate someone who you felt tried to kill you.

                As for social anxiety both in the broad sense and in the specialized sense yes therapists work through those issues.

                “I am not saying that the therapy for LS should consist of sex. I am saying that there is no therapy at all. That there is none regardless of it being a medically recognized diagnosis or not. There simply isn’t anything that a therapist might do. Some other people- yes, therapist no. I had an idea how to help those with LS but it was rejected by almost everybody (but not everybody) and laughed at. So if this isn’t implemented therapists can only help with sex and that alone would do practically everything to break down the phobia.”

                This comment seems to contradict its self, you are not saying that therapy for the love shy should consist of sex…yet having sex would do everything to fix LS. Also this entire comment chain got started because you specifically said a good therapist treating this condition should either wing for or have sex with a client. That seems to state that you at least from time to time think that LS therapy should consist of sex. I argue that love shy therapy should consist of teaching people how to interact with females/males in a healthy way so that can enter into and maintain romantic relationships that would eventually escalate themselves as is natures way into sexual encounters.

                As for what medications would be helpful, now I can only speculate. Each patient is different and it is not at all possible to diagnosis a patient, or choose an appropriate medication over the internet. So I am assuming that this individual is being seen in the usual manner in an office. You would probably start with SSRI. Another option would be a benzo that was to be taken for a short and defined period (IE a limited number of pills and no refills) before the encounters that make the patient overly anxious.

                • Again we are in different countries from each other, but I know at least in the country that I am in therapists do perform controlled exposure therapy.

                  In the country you are in therapists are also liberal scum who only deserve bullets and fire. They will NOT do this for LS because they are that and deserve what I described. DO YOU UNDERSTAND? US therapists won’t perform any therapy for LS BECAUSE THEY ARE RETARDED SCUM.

                  maintain romantic relationships

                  What you believe you know is wrong.

                  The first step to maintaining or starting a romantic relationship is speaking to someone. You mention rather frequently that you would speak to girls at length over SMS flert services, but where then too scared to meet the female in person as a younger man. So it seems you at least, and I suspected many LS teens did suffer form an inability to speak to living females.

                  Sigh…. Jesus, Clear. Just because some severe LS males like I was can’t meet women IRL it doesn’t mean they can’t talk to women at all. At the time I couldn’t meet these women I was in a high school class where there were 10 boys and 20 girls. Of course I did talk to some of these girls about school stuff and such crap. So, NO, IT’S NOT ABOUT MERELY TALKING TO WOMEN. Fuck you’re closed minded. You’re not doing much to change my mind about Americans, not at all.

                  You also wrote elsewhere on your blog that therapists could offer a service where they bring in females that teach LS patients how to “kiss and cuddle as for many this would be their first experience with such things”. Again this would be therapy aimed at normal social contact, much like helping someone with OCD learn to touch objects they view as dirty.

                  Oh boy… Clear, that was a part of the now abandoned Governmentsgetgirlfriends program. WHICH SUGGESTED A COORDINATED EFFORT BY VARIOUS PEOPLE, NOT JUST THERAPISTS. These girls are obviously not therapists. Are you saying that therapists would get these girls? They really do that? I don’t think so.

                  So, the deal here is that you’re talking about stuff you don’t understand and don’t have enough info about.

                  “Okay I want to question a statement you said, “I don’t hate drugs or psychiatrists.” You have stated multiple times that drugs are a way of numbing the masses to a natural reaction and that people who work in mental health should be charged with murder for their failure to provide clients with the help you think they need, which in this case seems to be actively having sex with their clients.”

                  Again, you’re confusing some things. I am against the idea of using drugs in a way that is supposed to numb an incel or “treat his depression”. And I’m calling it an idea because it sure as fuck is nothing more than an idea conceived in some empty liberal heads, a sick idea that incel isn’t a problem at all and that some pills can solve anything.
                  As for therapists, those who their LS clients ask for sex but don’t provide it should be charged with murder, yes, but this applies only to those who have actively been asked to do it. How the hell does this mean I hate all therapists in all cases? Silly.

                  “This comment seems to contradict its self, you are not saying that therapy for the love shy should consist of sex…yet having sex would do everything to fix LS. Also this entire comment chain got started because you specifically said a good therapist treating this condition should either wing for or have sex with a client. That seems to state that you at least from time to time think that LS therapy should consist of sex. I argue that love shy therapy should consist of teaching people how to interact with females/males in a healthy way so that can enter into and maintain romantic relationships that would eventually escalate themselves as is natures way into sexual encounters. ”

                  Because THERE IS NO THERAPY. I proposed one and was ridiculed all over the Internet, dammit. Since

                  1. there is no nor will there ever be the kind of therapy I initially proposed

                  2. there is no nor will there ever be the kind of therapy you propose because nobody will ever see this as a real problem, especially not dumb American scum

                  THE ONLY “THERAPY” IS FOR THE FEMALE THERAPISTS TO JUST LIE ON THE COUCH AND SPREAD THEIR GODAMN LEGS.

                  “As for what medications would be helpful, now I can only speculate. Each patient is different and it is not at all possible to diagnosis a patient, or choose an appropriate medication over the internet. So I am assuming that this individual is being seen in the usual manner in an office. You would probably start with SSRI. Another option would be a benzo that was to be taken for a short and defined period (IE a limited number of pills and no refills) before the encounters that make the patient overly anxious.”

                  Well, great, but none of this will ever happen. The current trends, as described in July 22 article, are going towards less sanity in dealing with these or any other problems.

                • Clear, now that I believe it’s unlikely to reply allow me to tell you what the real issue is.

                  All of our discussion about treating LS is pointless. There is no LS in a sane society because sane societies don’t require seduction. All the while, insane societies create imbeciles and will never do anything about LS.

                  You are a silly, naive young girl who took a severe beating during this idiotic discussion and proven herself to be a potential danger for anybody intelligent who might be your patient.

                  Well, I will tell you what the real issue is. Feminism. Seduction. Morons.

                  You see, a sane patient wouldn’t even look at you before you bring him the head of a feminist.

                  But if somebody asked you that you’d report him/her. And there’s no way out here. Just human stupidity and misery.

                  • You claim I took a beating, I do agree you were rather verbally abusive and called me many names. I don’t like using such things as I find screaming and tantrum like insults are well…just that tantrum like.

  7. I completely relate to your experience and anxiety issues. I had my first and only “girlfriend” after kindergarten, we were together for a couple of years until one “friend” of mine bullied me by not letting me play with them and there it ended. Since then I moved on to accumulating knowledge in diverse areas and started multiple businesses, but love has remained elusive.

    For me it really is an issue of not being able to approach a member of the opposite sex with romantic intent, even in the case of knowing that the result will not be a rejection. For that point, I suggest going out with a close friend that knows about your problem and that opens groups for you and introduces you to the girls. Using this approach I feel I am able to talk to them, as I do not come across as showing romantic intent and I do not feel the chance of rejection when is someone else the one responsible for opening.

    About number 2, to make romantic/sexual initiative towards a person you know without that person doing anything like that first, even in the case of knowing that the result will not be a rejection. I still have lots of trouble with that one, to the point that even having had a good conversation with a girl and things going seemingly well she loses interest as I do not escalate, which she expects me to do. For that I have yet to find a replicable and consistent set of steps to follow.

    And the final one, being unable to reciprocate romantic/sexual interest of others, ie they are often afraid to reciprocate indicators of interest. Sometimes, as you say in the article, it seems as I am not interested at all in the girl even if I am, but it is very difficult for me to reciprocate her signs, especially when I usually am very self-conscious and cannot do things like touching or mirroring automatically. And then some other times it is just that I feel I would be invading her space, but then it is what I should be doing anyway.

    From my experience love-shyness is a condition that deteriorates with time and has very severe consequences in other areas of your life, unless you are able to fake that you also take lots of women to bed, which is not that difficult to do with porn and prostitutes nowadays. However, any plans to have your own family or any real intimacy are severely compromised and I cannot express the suffering it causes to its victims.

    I am 28 years old and I am love-shy.

  8. Pingback: Darkness | CoAlphaAntiModernistIncelBlogger

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