Replying to dar’s questions

Dar asked me some interesting questions about the program recently so let’s see what I have to say

“I have a few questions about your program. Answer or not, your blog.

First, what kind of women do you see signing up for this? Attractive, educated, intelligent? High quality women? I know you personally prefer that type, but will enrollment be limited to this type of woman or will fat, ugly dumb ones be accepted as well? How much money would it take to attract high quality women to the program? If it’s enough to entice the kind of woman you would like, wouldn’t it also entice women who just want to collect the money and move on?”

All kinds of women will be accepted. Obese women could be accepted but people who don’t want to date them might be warned.
Things like ugly or dumb are extremely subjective, as is the term “high quality women”.

I don’t think many women who are extremely good looking or financially well-off would join. However, that is not a bad thing – such women are usually outside of any incel’s league anyway.

As for women who only want to collect the money and move on I have explained that women who don’t find a partner within 30 dates get fired and barred from the program for a year, for they might be potential scammers.

“Second, you mention “…If she doesn’t find a suitable partner…” within the 30 dates you envision. I think you may have an unrealistic expectation of what women would want out of this. You say in the comments above that women are seldom incel but rather hicel. Do you think that women in this program will be without relationships and wanting to develop one with an incel, or that they may already be involved with a suitable man, and are just collecting a paycheck? Will there be background checks to make certain that all women are unattached? If they meet a suitable man while still signed onto the program will they be fired?”

Like I said, women who don’t find a partner within 30 dates get fired and barred from the program for an year, for they might be potential scammers. However, I think most women who do apply would really be searching for a boyfriend.

It’s not practical for the government to make background checks to see if the women are unattached. If they meet a suitable man while still singed onto the program OUTSIDE THE PROGRAM they have to report this. Of course, they might not do it but it would be senseless not to do it as they would be paid the same sum anyway.

“Third, will there be a screening process to weed out men and women who are mentally or emotionally unsuited for this type of encounter? A history of violence, mental illness, animal cruelty, criminal behavior, inappropriate relations (think underage), etc…, would that be enough to disqualify anyone? The safety of all involved would have to be a major concern for a government-sponsored program. What safeguards would be in place?”

Yes, there would be a screening process made by psychiatrists and psychologists.

Mental illness shouldn’t not prevent anybody from signing up unless they’re too sick to care about themselves. Many people have mental illnesses like depression or personality disorders nowadays.

Past criminal behavior would exclude you if you committed certain crimes like murder, acts of more serious violence, child abuse etc.

“Last, what happens to incels themselves in this program? Let’s say, hypothetically, that a man goes on 30 dates with 30 women, and for the sake of argument that they are all reasonably attractive and intelligent. No fatty, missing-toothed idiots, but all women a man might reasonably be attracted to. He thinks there’s been chemistry with 15 of them, but in 30 dates he hasn’t even gotten a second date with any of them. Since women are not required to provide sex, wouldn’t this hypothetical man be even more frustrated than before? What of one who thinks he has finally met the woman of his dreams, only to be told that she’s dropping out of the program because she met a great guy and wants to move in with him? Are there safety measures to prevent these men from becoming worse than ever?”

I can envision this happening to some men but I can’t think of any safety measures except for psychological screening once you apply.
However, I don’t think this would be such a big problem. There would always be other women for such men to date.

Stuff you describe usually happens because men feel like they have no chance of getting another woman.

“Just a few questions that leap to mind. Oh, and what does TAC stand for? I don’t read reddit or tumblr.”

TAC stands for The Atheist Cult. I have described TAC here

https://caamib.wordpress.com/2013/03/04/quo-vadis-atheism/

61 thoughts on “Replying to dar’s questions

  1. It’s time for a second government implemented idea. Pay us money to send us to bangkok, so we can phuck cheap sloots.

  2. I think there are different types of incels. Those who look for love, it’s not a solution (altough, you can buy thai ladies tough to marry you). There are also incels who just look for sex.

    Ofcourse, not all incels are rich, so they need the governments help to let them get laid.

    I think this is a magnificent idea.

      • GGGF:
        I can tell from that answer that you don’t live in America. Even the pornographers here are having trouble finding women worth looking at.

        To make the first point in your program work in the US, we would have to repeal the IMBRA law first. Rather than pay for people to travel abroad, though, as Kali suggests, we should make it easier for foreign women to come here.

  3. I’m not a troll man. I consider myself an incel (or hicel is also possible).

    Prostitution is already available, but it costs too much. Let’s say that I need at least 1 sexy time per week. This would cost me at least 100 euro’s for one hour per week. These are expenses rooted due to my incel and thus should be covered by an health insurance sort of thing.

    This already applies to physically handicapped people. They get a visit once a week. If it applies to them, why not for me ?

    Why traveling abroad: well, it’s not needed, but it’s actually a lot cheaper. In europe, for 100 bucks, you will fuck one hour. In asia, you can fuck for the whole evening.

  4. Girlfriends are overrated man. Once you get used by a particular vagina, you want a different flavour. I guess i’m a different kind of incel, one who only seeks for causual sex (I do have a girlfriend, but she more for emotional company and all that crap).

  5. Oh you are right, currently speaking i’m not incel.

    do you regard incel as a trait and or state btw ? For me, it can be both. You can be chronically intel, but you can be temporarily intel (when you are searching for a pussy for a couple of months for example).

    If you are searching for longer than 2 months, then I think it should be considered unhealthy and you are officialy intel.

    Just like with depression. If you feel crap for 2 weeks, you in a depressive state and need help..

  6. an url can be helpfull 😉

    Btw,I want to make a personal anecdote.

    I recently subscribed myself to an asian dating website. Unlike the western dating sites, these asian broads are extremely hunting for males. They are poor and wanting to live in the west, so they will throw themselves out for males. Western hot females want a millionaire, asian hot female is content if she can come to europe!.

    This can give you some sort of self-worth tough. The moment you log on to the website and you see that 20 girls have replied, it really makes you feel alpha. And at least 20% is fairly good looking.

    You can also contact a very beautifull asian and she will respond positively to you!

    This might not help for love shy people, but it will help for incel people without loveshyness. Instead of going to western dating sites, try a non-western one. If you don’t like asians, then try eastern europe dating websites. Those are also pretty poor.

    I also want to make clear thart incel people can just chat with these girls, it will help your interaction with girls and you your self-esteem will rise.

  7. Hey bro,
    I just randomly found your blog. I’m sorry you’ve had trouble finding someone to be with. That’s rough, and I definitely sympathize.

    That said, I have a couple of beefs with your proposed solution:
    1. Is this really the government’s role?
    As a solid liberal (I was involved with Occupy at my university), I can obviously see the important role that government can play in our daily lives. However, is it really the government’s role to be spending money to incentivize women to go on dates with incel men? Couldn’t that money be better spent on say, food stamps or education or rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure? You can definitely make the argument that it is the government’s role to provide a social safety net (eg food, shelter, education), but is it really the government’s role to facilitate romantic happiness?

    2. Would it really solve your problem?
    I’m guessing that the assumption that you’re working from in this program is that once incel men can get a date with women, they can use their sparkling personality/etc to charm the women into going out with them again. According to you, the problem lies in getting the women to go on a date in the first place. But I feel like there might be other problems involved. For example, maybe many incel men just have difficulty talking to women (shy etc.) That’s not a problem that’s likely to be alleviated by just getting government subsidized dates. Or maybe there are other factors involved (abusive family, childhood bullying etc) that need to be worked out before incel men can have a normal relationship. I feel like if you have difficulty getting dates with women, it might be because there are other serious things that are the root of your problem.

    3. Your assumptions
    I was looking at your comparison to the Civil Rights movement on Reddit. I think that one of the reasons that that comparison made so many people angry is because incellibacy isn’t something that you’re just born with and can’t change, like race is. I think there are definitely steps you can take (eg. work out any issues you may have had in the past, make a greater effort to put yourself out there and meet new people, make some female friends etc.) to be able to get rid of your problem. Worst comes to worst, nobody is /really/ incel – you’re all hicel (eg, you could easily go to the “bad” part of town and find someone who’s willing to bang you for 5$, but you don’t actually want to do that.) On the other hand, the black person in your example can’t do anything to change the color of their skin to be able to get equal respect.

    There’s also the question that you raise: is sex a right? eg, if you aren’t getting sex, does that mean that your rights are being violated in some way? I don’t think so. Of course, the ability to pursue sex/romantic love is a right, but the rest is up to you. If you’re not getting the kinds of opportunities to have sex that you want, that doesn’t mean that your rights are getting violated.

  8. Sex is a need, just like other basic needs like food and shelter. If something has lasting psychological effects on your being/mind when the need is not met, then it should be provided for.

    Your argument that the money should be spent on food stamps is illfounded for 2 reasons. 1) you can say that the government should not place a traffic pole and instead use the money for shelter and food. You can always say that the government should opt out of a lesser important thing in society and just invest in food and shelter. Food and shelter is important, but it doesn’t mean we should ignore other societical ills. 2) sex is a basic need similar to food and shelter. Food and shelter are more important, but don’t treat sex as a privilege. It’s also a need and should be provided for.

    Hicel part is somewhat true (your argument doesnt apply to people who seek love, not merely sex), but i don’t it should be considered hicel if you don’t want to have sex with a fat, disgusting bitch. (that’s like asking of me to not feel disgusted when I see a piece of shit). I didn’t build the physiology in my body and my body wans a decent looking girl whom i can stick my dick in. Since decent prostitutes are expensive, there should be a insurance thing setup.

  9. That’s an interesting argument. I’m really not sure if being able to have sex with another person really is a basic need on the level of food and shelter. You could always jack off and get it out of your system. Sure, it wouldn’t necessarily be super high-quality sex, but it’s still sex and your need would still be fulfilled. Human companionship and human touch is important, but it doesn’t mean that the government should spend funds on it.

    It looks like you’re arguing that high-quality sex with a woman you’re attracted to is a right. What about the “fat, disgusting bitch” you were talking about? Does she also have a right to have sex with a decently good looking man who she wants? Should the government incentivize men to go on dates with her?

  10. I agree with you that sex is not on par with food and shelter. But sex should still be considered as a need. And I don’t think jerking off is a valid alternative for sex, it only takes the edge of. If it was a valid alternative, most men would stop pursuing women and just go spank the monkey.

    If you consider it as a need (which I believe it is) and you consider the fact that some people can’t get it due to their disorder for instance, don’t you then think the government should help these citizens and thus fund them ?

    For example, physically handicapped people don’t get much attraction from females. Would you not want that the insurance company covered for their expenses on sex workers ? If you answer with yes, then you can easily broaden the group towards more psychologically handicapped people. If you answer with ‘no’, then you have a cold heart 😀

    Regarding your second question, I can only answer with: yes ofcourse. If there is a female who can’t find an attractive date and this is due her psychological poblems (im thinking social anxiety disorder), then the government should help her out also.

  11. I suspect it would be almost impossible to get your proposed program enacted into law for the simple reason that the proposal as it stands discriminates against women – which is illegal in my country and a great many others, possibly also including yours (have you checked?).

    Why are women kicked off the program after a certain number of dates, while men can remain on it indefinitely? And do you propose to cater for gay men and lesbians? All four groups are taxpayers, so why do you appear to be favoring just one, which also happens to be the group to which you yourself belong?

    • It also discriminates against men, who don’t get paid. Anyway, I don’t care about that. I want practical solutions and don’t care about anything else.

      I explained why women are kicked off the program after a certain number of dates only about a million times here.

      I propose to cater for gay men and lesbians. They could apply too and be sent to dates with other gay men and lesbians.

      • I explained why women are kicked off the program after a certain number of dates only about a million times here.

        You have indeed, but every single time you’ve explained it you’ve also admitted that your program is inherently sexist and discriminatory, because only women would be, as you yourself put it, “kicked off the program”. So how do you propose to get around the problem that many governments would not be able to implement it because it would directly contradict their legally binding commitments to gender equality?

        Put it like this, if a woman was “kicked off the program” merely for being female and was minded to sue the government for discrimination, what would its defense be? Especially given that the woman in question would also be a taxpayer, and would be making just as great a contribution towards the program as the men using it.

    • Incel men can remain indefintely as would incel women, they don’t get paid. Non-incel men and women get paid. Where is the discrimination ?

      gay people can also apply, but they can figure out their own shit and dragqueens can come, an asexuals, and dolphin fuckkers, they can all join, but let them sort it hout how it works for them.

  12. Kali,
    there are lots of things that could be considered needs. For example, friendship is also a need. So is self esteem, and a feeling of belonging. But you can’t expect the government to provide for those needs for you. Food and shelter are reasonable needs to ask the government to provide as social safety net. Self esteem, love, sex, belonging are not.

    Also, don’t forget that there is another person involved here. Let’s imagine for a second that we existed in a world where there were no prostitutes (just as a thought experiment, mind you), and person X could not get a date. Would it then be morally justified for person X to satisfy their need for sex, even if the partner is unwilling? Of course not. The difference between something like food or shelter and something like sex/love is that the second category involves social needs. It requires other people to accept you, and it fundamentally requires the desire and consent of other people to participate.

    Second, there’s a difference between sex workers and dates. Don’t forget that under the scheme being discussed here, the women who sign up for this program are not being paid to have sex with you. They’re being paid to go on dates. Most of the women I know are willing to make a move if they’re attracted to somebody (and no, that somebody doesn’t have to look like Brad Pitt), even without being paid to do so. This goes back to point number 2 that I made earlier – if you’re incel, there’s probably some other root cause. It could be childhood abuse, it could be bad previous experiences, it could be all sorts of other things. Likely these problems negatively affect other areas of your life as well. But what that also means is that even if a woman is paid to go on dates with you, she will still not want to have sex with you (because the problems that are stopping you from asking women out would also be the problems stopping you from being able to interact well with them in a date setting). It seems to me to be a much more fruitful thing to subsidize therapy for incel people who feel as though they have psychological issues, because that would solve multiple problems.

    • Tobias, you are, of course, wrong.

      1. Whatever the root cause of incel is it doesn’t mean that you can treat it now or stop being incel once you have treated it (other stuff, like the lack of experience with women, can come into play after years of incel).

      2. There is a program for love-shy men who can’t ask a woman out.

      3. Therapy is useless for incels. Ask them if you don’t believe me.

    • Your first point: why not ? actually, the government does provide for it, trough therapy that is. Not sure if every therapists in america is private, but here in belgium, the government provides therapy for all kinds of shit. If you are lonely for whatever reason and you tried everything out, then you can get into therapy and they’ll help you with whatever they can. So in essence, the government does provide for self-esteem needs and other.

      And if your country don’t, then I don’t see why they can’t provide for it. Nothing strange about the idea.

      Second point: who said anything about unwilling. We aren’t forcing anyone here. I don’t know why you made that point.

      3rd point: yes, we are talking about dates here and not sex (THE op wants a girl, i’m more into sex). That was the intent of the program all along.
      You are assuming: because someone is an incel, he/she might have underlying psychological problems. Even tough it does apply for probably a majority, it doesn’t make it true for every incel. Also, a large chunk of these psychological problems would probably be a direct cause of their incel status (so it should go away when they are non-incel).
      I’m assuming that these women won’t be that attractive anyway, so they’ll likely lower their standards as well and just go for an incel guy.

      The main advantage of this government provided dating service for incel men is that it gives incel men more chance to find a date. In the ‘real world’, there is competition with non-incel men and incels can’t compete. So they need the governments help to ward of the competition. Program is only applied to incels.

  13. GGG,
    A question, then: why are incel men incel? Why do they have difficult asking women out/getting dates ? I’m guessing it’s most likely a self-esteem issue, or a difficulty interacting with women (maybe problems with social skills). These problems aren’t going to be resolved simply by instituting a program that incentivizes women to go on dates with men.

  14. … but there are plenty of average-looking (or worse) short men who are not rich who also have girlfriends/wives/romantic partners. I don’t think it’s a status thing, but more of a psychological thing.

    And even if women really were so shallow as to reject a man’s offer to date purely on looks/status etc, they still wouldn’t want to be actually romantically involved with him even if they were paid to go on a date. If anything, they’d hold him in even greater contempt.

    • I just mentioned some of the reasons. It can also be said that there are many shy men who lack social skills who have girlfriends/wives/romantic partners.

      I explained that the kind of women who would apply would most be shy/nerdy/withdrawn/uglier/poorer women.

    • It’s just a program for desperate men and desperate women where both men and women don’t have any competition with their non-incel counterparts, in a nutshell.

      • So basically it’s an incel-only dating service? I think with some kind of charity group you could manage something like that online without the help from the government.

  15. I’m still under shock after reading your blog…I thought I’d seen it all but this…chill out man, take it easy, it’s all I can say. Not getting laid it’s not that bad really, no need to go psycho.

    How is your “program” any different from services like dating websites and speed dating events? Would they be more effective if the government ran them?. I don’t think it’s a great idea, yet is somewhat better than practicing incest with your mom. You’re european, I assume, so it’s not your parent’s duty to find you a GF, like it’s in India.

    Have you checked out blogs like Chateau Heartiste or Krauser PUA?. You could try to learn how to cold approach girls. After all you’ve already slept with 3 women for free, so you already know it’s not impossible. In fact you’re doing a lot better than many incels out there who are still virgins in their 30’s and 40’s.

    • If you think the program doesn’t apply for the Op, it can still aply for other incels.

      Pua means that incels have to compete with on-incels, incels can’t compete in a private enterprise like a any kind of dating service. They need far stricter regulations and professional help included.

  16. Post this, or not. Your blog.

    All kinds of women will be accepted. Obese women could be accepted but people who don’t want to date them might be warned.

    Does that mean that the women can pick and choose too? No short men, no bald men, no overweight men, etc…? Or are they expected to go out with anyone so long as they get paid? Because if the women don’t get to be as choosy as the men, then this is unfair and discriminatory. And won’t work because of it.

    As for women who only want to collect the money and move on I have explained that women who don’t find a partner within 30 dates get fired and barred from the program for a year, for they might be potential scammers.

    But men who don’t find a partner get to stay on forever and ever, with the gov’t footing the bill? I see a lot of problems with this.

    Plus, once again, why do you think women who sign on for this program would be wanting to find a boyfriend among the incels?

    Yes, there would be a screening process made by psychiatrists and psychologists.

    Mental illness shouldn’t not prevent anybody from signing up unless they’re too sick to care about themselves.

    Here is where I see the biggest problem. If this is a gov’t run program (and I do not believe that this will ever happen), then it will take only one single incident of violence or harassment to shut it down completely. Just one. Mental illness would have to be a dealbreaker, unless it could be established beyond doubt that the man (person) in question is absolutely no danger at all. More on that below.

    However, I don’t think this would be such a big problem. There would always be other women for such men to date.

    Stuff you describe usually happens because men feel like they have no chance of getting another woman.

    Uh, this. If there are always other women for such men to date, then why do they need a program? Isn’t that sort of the point, that there are no other women for incel men to date?

    More on the problems of unstable participants. If, as you stipulate, this is a government program, then the safety of all participants must be guaranteed. What happens if one woman commits a horrible, unforgivable crime, like cancelling a date or saying that she wants to break it off because she’s getting a bad vibe? What if the man she was dating goes off on her, stalking her, showing up at her office, calling her or emailing when she’s said to stop? How about a physical assault? It would take only one incident to break the entire thing for every participant. Unstable men (and women) would have to be screened out at every step.

    Who does that leave to sign up?

    Oh, in case you give a shit, I spent about two years without sex, or any sort of relationship at all with a woman (or women). Does that make me an ex-incel? I certainly wanted one, but it just didn’t work out. That’s more than 6 months, so do I qualify? I’m guessing not, since I don’t believe that incel is a thing. I think it’s a label that’s been tossed around on the Internet because it makes the people who describe themselves as such feel like victims. I wasn’t a victim, just didn’t find a woman I liked and who liked me back for a couple of years.

    • These are a lot of valid questions I would like to see answered. I honestly think I could consider getting behind a program like this that catered equally to men and women, but a lot of issues make it seem like it caters more specifically to men.

    • You ask a lot of superfluous questions Dar. Questions that are not important for the crux of his idea.

      But anyway, we’ll look at your questions and answer them.
      1) ofcourse women can choose, both incel as non incel women. This isn’t forcefull method of any kind. I can’t believe you can even ask this question. Did you believe this was a kind of rape program all this time ? lol

      2. men can stay forever ? INCELS can stay forever (both women and men) and non-incels for a limited time (both men and women).

      3. because these women are desperate themselves.

      4. mental ilness = dangerous ? are you fukking kidding me. Extremely discriminatory bro like serious. In the field of psychology, you are now seen as an extreme bigot right now. And this is the biggest problem you see ?

      5. rest of your point is an reiteration of your point 4, which is a very dumbfounded idea.
      [you] euh…what happens if a guy wants to collect food stamps from social services and the social services don’t want to give it to them. The man is in a hungry state and would freak out and lash out. Sounds dangerous bro, social services and food stamps are a bad idea.[/you]

      @ OP: dar is simple as phuck, you should focus on bigger contestants.

    • “Does that mean that the women can pick and choose too? No short men, no bald men, no overweight men, etc…? Or are they expected to go out with anyone so long as they get paid? Because if the women don’t get to be as choosy as the men, then this is unfair and discriminatory. And won’t work because of it.”

      Women should be warned about same things as men- extreme obesity and physical handicaps. Things that will immediately preclude any attraction. Things like shortness and baldness – no. I don’t want any dates where an attraction could have been developed to fail before they ever happened.

      “But men who don’t find a partner get to stay on forever and ever, with the gov’t footing the bill? I see a lot of problems with this.”

      Yes, but these men aren’t paid.

      “Plus, once again, why do you think women who sign on for this program would be wanting to find a boyfriend among the incels?”

      Not all women are extremely hypergamous and picky. This program would attract nerdier, uglier and poorer women, as well as incel women.

      “Here is where I see the biggest problem. If this is a gov’t run program (and I do not believe that this will ever happen), then it will take only one single incident of violence or harassment to shut it down completely. Just one. Mental illness would have to be a dealbreaker, unless it could be established beyond doubt that the man (person) in question is absolutely no danger at all. More on that below.”

      I don’t see why it would take a single incident of violence or harassment to shut it down completely.
      Take welfare checks -should this be closed down because some people are abusing it?

      “Mental illness would have to be a dealbreaker, unless it could be established beyond doubt that the man (person) in question is absolutely no danger at all. More on that below.”

      Mental illness does not mean that a person is a danger to him self or others. Are you saying that we shouldn’t let in depressed people? Nobody who actually has consequences of incel? C’mon.

      “Uh, this. If there are always other women for such men to date, then why do they need a program? Isn’t that sort of the point, that there are no other women for incel men to date?”

      I mean there are other women to date in the program.

      “More on the problems of unstable participants. If, as you stipulate, this is a government program, then the safety of all participants must be guaranteed. What happens if one woman commits a horrible, unforgivable crime, like cancelling a date or saying that she wants to break it off because she’s getting a bad vibe? What if the man she was dating goes off on her, stalking her, showing up at her office, calling her or emailing when she’s said to stop? How about a physical assault? It would take only one incident to break the entire thing for every participant. Unstable men (and women) would have to be screened out at every step.”

      If a woman cancels a date she will be warned not to do this again or she will be fired. If a man goes off on her he will be thrown out and reported for any possible crimes he might commit.
      Once again, I don’t see why such incident would break the entire thing for every participant.

      “Oh, in case you give a shit, I spent about two years without sex, or any sort of relationship at all with a woman (or women). Does that make me an ex-incel? I certainly wanted one, but it just didn’t work out. That’s more than 6 months, so do I qualify? I’m guessing not, since I don’t believe that incel is a thing. I think it’s a label that’s been tossed around on the Internet because it makes the people who describe themselves as such feel like victims. I wasn’t a victim, just didn’t find a woman I liked and who liked me back for a couple of years.”

      You qualify, though 2 years actually means you were incel for an year and a half (6 month rule). It’s not that long, but you qualify.
      Whether people who experience it feel like victims or not is irrelevant for the definition of the condition.

      • Women should be warned about same things as men- extreme obesity and physical handicaps. Things that will immediately preclude any attraction. Things like shortness and baldness – no. I don’t want any dates where an attraction could have been developed to fail before they ever happened.

        So men get to choose for traits that they find attractive, and women do not.. b/c they’re getting paid. OK. Just clearing that up.

        Out of curiosity, how much do you see them getting paid, per date? I don’t think too many women will sign up to date men to whom they are not attractive unless a fair amount of money is involved. US$50 isn’t going to do it.

        Yes, but these men aren’t paid.
        But still at taxpayer expense? Sweet deal for the men. Gov’t gets them dates, foots the tab. Taxpayers get screwed over, but big deal?

        I don’t see why it would take a single incident of violence or harassment to shut it down completely.
        Take welfare checks -should this be closed down because some people are abusing it?

        Welfare fraud exists, no argument there. But there is a little bit of difference between financial fraud and assaults against another living person. One incident of assault, stalking, persistent unwanted contact, etc… would taint a gov’t program. If the safety and privacy of the women involved isn’t guaranteed, why would they sign up? Also, if it is a governmental program rather than a private one (online dating sites, et al), then it is the responsibility of the gov’t to ensure that it is fair and safe.

        Mental illness does not mean that a person is a danger to him self or others. Are you saying that we shouldn’t let in depressed people? Nobody who actually has consequences of incel? C’mon.

        Most people suffering from a mental disorder are not dangerous either to themselves or others. I am saying that in order for a program like this to exist, there would have to be rigorous screenings to weed out anyone with a history of violence, violent acts or persistent violent ideations (emphasis on “persistent,” not just one or two FB posts), animosity towards women or other “red flags” to warn of potential threats to any program participant.

        I mean there are other women to date in the program.

        OK. Thanks for making that clearer.

        If a woman cancels a date she will be warned not to do this again or she will be fired. If a man goes off on her he will be thrown out and reported for any possible crimes he might commit.
        Once again, I don’t see why such incident would break the entire thing for every participant.

        Women aren’t allowed to cancel dates? Ever? Really? So when they sign on to the program, they can’t choose men they find attractive, they have to show up for dates even if they’re sick or have to work overtime? Just a little discriminatory, wouldn’t you say? How about the men? Can they cancel one?

        If a man goes off on a woman, even if he’s kicked off the program it is still tainted by the lack of safety precautions. Assuming this program actually got off the ground, how many “incidents” would it take to convince women that they’re setting themselves up to be stalked, assaulted, or at minimum exposed to men who have not been screened for any potential problems? A single report on FB about “my horrible date with The Program” would spread quickly. More than one, and look for lots of publicity, and many fewer women. And lawsuits. One woman is attacked, stalked, picks up a creep who doesn’t want to accept that she doesn’t want another date with him, she’s got grounds for a suit. And I don’t know about in your country, but here, that’s automatic shutdown. And should be, if there’s not safeguards in place to keep creeps and misogynists far away.

        You qualify, though 2 years actually means you were incel for an year and a half (6 month rule). It’s not that long, but you qualify.
        Whether people who experience it feel like victims or not is irrelevant for the definition of the condition.

        I notice that when you post you often get defensive about the term “incel” and get very upset if people point out that if you’re getting sex, then you’re not incel, or cel at all. You may want to use a clearer, more concise definition of exactly what you mean. If you use “incel” by its artificially created Internet definition of “involuntarily celibate,” then it’s your fault if others misunderstand. If you mean “without a romantic relationship” that’s a lot more keystrokes, but also makes your meaning clearer. Getting mad and yelling “it’s your fault that you don’t understand what I mean” doesn’t make any points. Say what you mean. Your English is quite good, and if you choose to address a primarily English-speaking audience, please use the words that express your meaning. You aren’t lacking in language skills. “Incel” as defined online means “involuntarily celibate.” It is unreasonable to expect a reader to look at it and say to themselves “Oh, does that mean incel, or does it mean love-shy, or does it mean social phobia, or does it mean fear of approaching women (I think we all have that to some extent), or does it mean…” Say what you mean, and there will be fewer misunderstandings.

        GGG- I have deleted a part of your post where you tried to sell TAC poison. That part of the post wasn’t a question so it shouldn’t matter. I will reply to this tomorrow.

  17. Hi. I’m new here. I came across this blog from a site that was mocking it, you can try and guess which one, or I can tell you, haha. I have a lot to say on this/relate to a lot, based o my own personal experience. But before I say anything, I have to ask, and please, don’t take this personally, I don’t mean for it too, maybe it is my own paranoid anxieties, but how do I know this isn’t being run by people who will make fun of it, or like, will disperse whatever I say about to have it used against me? I’m being serious. Like I said, I found this from another site, jezebel, long story, I will say I disagree with them more than anything, and like, know what I’m saying? So other than all that, hello.

    • Yeah, good question. And there isn’t a clearcut solution for this. You might just want to choose for incel women and since they have the same status as you, you can make equal fun of her :p

      Absolute anonimity can’t be guarenteed. It’s like group therapies for whatever diseases. Everybody in that group has to keep quiet to the outside world that you are in it, but ofcourse, nobody can guarentee that other people won’t talk. It’s a risk. I believe it’s a risk willing to take. (dieing alone is worse than other people finding out you are a 40 year old virgin….for me at least :D)

  18. I have a lot to say on all of this, for I feel, have felt, for a long time, I suffer from this. One example to make a long story short, I have not had sex now in over 7 years, and even before that, it’s not like my sex/dating/love life was all that active. I have so much to post and say, I don’t want to hog anything, but reading through a lot of this strikes several nerves, which I’m sure you can imagine. This isn’t the first time I heard of this. I heard about it a few years back. Up until then, that didn’t strike or a label I thought of, to describe the problem. I did find a forum once. I may have banned, angry ranting. But that was a while. Since then, over the years, I’ve tried to ignore the problem in whatever ways I could. I won’t list how right now. I’m very worried. I’m getting older, I’ll be 28 this year, and this problem still persists. I’m not going to get into the who, how or why or who and what to blame as of now, that’s a whole other issue/posting. Well, I look forward to talking more with you all.

  19. So, here’s something that’s always perplexed me. Maybe the answer is more obvious and right in front of me than I realized, or maybe it is complex, or maybe it is that people really do suck/are horrible. So, from that jezebel article where I found this, here’s one of the comments, “Alternately, one could seek therapy if your social anxiety and/or depression is that crippling, adjust the sense of entitlement (being a virgin and/or socially inexperienced isn’t a handicap, dudes) and learn how to talk to women like they’re people instead of treating ’em like whores.”

    It’s from the guy who runs dr.nerdlove, good site if you want to check it out.

    See, I agree with that, but…..

    Why do so many girls, and for generalizations sake, we’ll say “hot girls”, go for the players/assholes/jerks/insert other word of your choice, etc, who do treat and talk to them like shit and whores? Why is it somehow more acceptable for them?, they play/manipulate the social game(s) better?, and yet, yeah, the genuine, decent, good guy, get’s called “entitled/sexist/mysogonist/bullshit he’s really probably not?” Hmm? Tell me if you can please.

    Time after time again, we see this happening. Why? Is it cause of feminism and it’s horrid effects? People are just stupid and they suck? And people even seem to make excuses for them when they do it, “Don’t worry about, it’s not your business, move on, find someone else, we all get rejected, etc.” I’m not saying those things don’t happen. I mean, am I just looking at this the wrong way?, or am I right? I can’t seem to get either to work for me, there are only certain times the asshole side comes out, and well, it’s more towards family, yeah, I’ve been a regrettable asshole to them at times, and just not working it right or bringing it out right in the social context, but seeing time after time again it working for guys. I’m not trying to pull the “nice guy” card either, that’s a whole other issue. But, if you are a regular/good/nice/kind/sweet/funny/considerate/compassionate/non-judgemental and accepting at a reasonable enough level/do speak your mind/do stand up for yourself, etc, you seem to be up shit creak. Surely, shyness, isolationism and problems with approaching and rejection don’t quite help either. And no one complains when women act entitled or “stick to there standards.”…….

    • “Alternately, one could seek therapy if your social anxiety and/or depression is that crippling, adjust the sense of entitlement (being a virgin and/or socially inexperienced isn’t a handicap, dudes) and learn how to talk to women like they’re people instead of treating ‘em like whores.”

      Thanks for letting me know this so I never visit his site. This guy is a TAC idiot.

      • Well, personally, I think some of his advice is pretty solid. Personally, and it’s just me, I’m not one to hold it against someone if there’s one thing I disagree with. I see enough petty people, and a lot of the time, it’s stupid things people take personally. I’ve never seen him mention anything about atheism, so that might warrant further looking into.

    • Why do so many girls, and for generalizations sake, we’ll say “hot girls”, go for the players/assholes/jerks/insert other word of your choice, etc, who do treat and talk to them like shit and whores? Why is it somehow more acceptable for them?, they play/manipulate the social game(s) better?, and yet, yeah, the genuine, decent, good guy, get’s called “entitled/sexist/mysogonist/bullshit he’s really probably not?” Hmm? Tell me if you can please.

      Age old question. And the simple answer is: nice = sign of weakness. It’s a shame, but that’s how the female mind works bro. If a girl call you ‘nice’, she means that you are beta. If a girl instantly friendzones you, it means you are beta.

      If you are the quiet, silent, shy type, it shows that you are probably not a ‘pusher’. It means that people are more likely to step on you and that you just take it [like a bitch]. This is inherently unsexy for females. (probably because in hunter-gatherer societies, the alpha males ruled the tribe and allocated the most resources and girls flock to the guy who has the most resources. It used to be food and protection, now it’s just money).

      Jerks/assholesrepresent the anti-thesis of beta’s, jerks are the alphas of todays society.

      If you really want to go for a hot chick and you don’t have the psychological attributes to be alpha (if you are a slow speaker, not witty, extremely unattractive = unchangeable beta status), then you have only 1 way to attract a hot lady: trough money. That’s it bro, make loads of it and you will find one who will in love with you (but weed out the golddiggers).

      There is one other way, but don’t count on it: luck. Maybe you will find a hot girl who shares the same interest in you and because this shared interest is so deep, she can look past your low social status and beta personality (this can happen, but again, don’t count it and work on you become either alpha or just plain rich).

      Btw, you said that you didn’t have sex for 8 years. Why don’t you go to a prostitute ?
      Share us your story bro.

      • I’ve always liked nice…I think girls realize after a while that misogynistic douchebags aren’t the way to go. Or maybe it’s just the stereotypical like…”dumb highschool cheerleader types”???
        Idk man, I just don’t see a lot of girls I know personally going straight for the guys who treat them like dirt.

      • “Age old question. And the simple answer is: nice = sign of weakness. It’s a shame, but that’s how the female mind works bro. If a girl call you ‘nice’, she means that you are beta. If a girl instantly friendzones you, it means you are beta.”

        Yup. Heard all that before. Again, I’m not trying to pull the “i’m so nice/I’m such a nice guy and all that” card. I want what anyone wants, a loving, stable, supportive relationship. As for my own strength and weaknesses, I think I recognize both. Yeah, the whole “Alpha/Beta” thing, something by this point in my life, I would be well beyond. But the painful reality is the painful reality. I always, and I’m trying to do this less, but thought myself above that, and the people who fall into it are stupid. But if I’m so smart, why am I having these problems? But again, why is it more socially acceptable it seems for those guys to do it, and it’s even encouraged? Why do people so, well, mindlessly fall into that?

        “If you are the quiet, silent, shy type, it shows that you are probably not a ‘pusher’. It means that people are more likely to step on you and that you just take it [like a bitch]. This is inherently unsexy for females. (probably because in hunter-gatherer societies, the alpha males ruled the tribe and allocated the most resources and girls flock to the guy who has the most resources. It used to be food and protection, now it’s just money).”

        I have varied back and forth between shy, quiet type and not through the years. I’m sure long bouts of isolation and low socialization haven’t helped, but when I’m involved in something, like work, or a show, I’m the opposite of that. I was recently involved in a show I did at school, this past semester felt very fulfilling. I got to know people better, I was out more, sure, some of the same problems still persisted, but I was able to redirect the focus. Now that it’s over, I’ve been bored out of my mind. I have been told I do seem emotionally closed off at times, which is probably true, and there are reasons for that. Although, I did open up more. Granted, I’m older than most of the people I worked with, I’m 27, they’re 18-23, I tend to think age differences like that don’t or shouldn’t matter, not that they do so much in that there are noticeable differences. I am not a pusher. Oh no, not after an experience I went through at my old job. Long story short, let’s just the one thing I regret is telling someone I should have told to go fuck themselves. At the time I had the job and $$$ to think about, but not like it worked out in the end anyways. Yeah yeah, the “take it like a bitch/hunter-gatherer-one with the most resources, which is another area I’m lacking in, well, I live at home still and no job, you figure it out.” Yeah. All that. Sometimes, I don’t know who to be angry at, myself or the world, but even when I am angry at the world, what’s it done for me all this time?

        “If you really want to go for a hot chick and you don’t have the psychological attributes to be alpha (if you are a slow speaker, not witty, extremely unattractive = unchangeable beta status), then you have only 1 way to attract a hot lady: trough money. That’s it bro, make loads of it and you will find one who will in love with you (but weed out the golddiggers).”

        Again, things I’ve tended to see myself as above or smarter than, it’s other people, they’re bad, not me, etc. I’m not even looking for a hot chick, or the hottest chicks, I don’t believe in rating people based on looks, but yes, some are more attractive than others, sure, I’ve found some more attractive than others, but I don’t hold every single person up to unrealistic standards either, something most people don’t seem to share. Again, this is one of those parts where is it me or them?. I’ve been often told I’m very witty, the beta status thing wears heavy on me though, to the point where I try to ignore it, well, as for money, haven’t been making much/little to none. I don’t have my stuff together, but I still have needs. I mean, there are chicks out there who stay with guys who are far worse. What does “extremely attractive” mean? Is this another unrealistic standard they hold people up to, yet still gripe about equality? Yeah, so while money is obviously important, that’s not happening. And call me old school, or naive even, I want something real. Not something that has to do with money.

        “Jerks/assholesrepresent the anti-thesis of beta’s, jerks are the alphas of todays society.”
        Yeah. and why do people keep enforcing that upon themselves?

        “There is one other way, but don’t count on it: luck. Maybe you will find a hot girl who shares the same interest in you and because this shared interest is so deep, she can look past your low social status and beta personality (this can happen, but again, don’t count it and work on you become either alpha or just plain rich).”

        Well, yes, I think I’ve been too reliant on that, and that hasn’t worked either. Yeah, it’s a willpower thing. It’s weird, when I’m involved in something, I’m in like 110%, but outside of that, I’m frustrated and confused.

        “Btw, you said that you didn’t have sex for 8 years. Why don’t you go to a prostitute ?
        Share us your story bro.”

        7 actually. Well, where to begin???….

        Well, it started in high school really, some stuff I’m still not quite over, but I’ve been better handling it than I was before. I became depressed over the fact that at 16, I had no contact or success with girls at all up to that point. No sex, no relationships, no even real girls as friends, social life was dying to dead, and it consumed me and I became very depressed. This bothered me well, throughout adolescence. I didn’t go to college right after high school either, and education is a whole other story. Not that I didn’t want too, but I couldn’t. Problems with passing standardized testing to graduate, and a lack of preparedness for it. But when I was almost 20, I was determined to get laid, and I did. I met a girl online, she was of age, I would never go after anyone underage, I’m not a perv/creep/pedo, and we did it. Well, due to my inexperience, I was too emotionally involved too soon. I really wanted the whole package, love, romance, etc, and like, I’d put myself down as a loser to her for not having done it sooner, not really, but close too, pushed for a relationship. Had I kept my mouth shut and enjoyed the ride, and just let it be sexual for a while, things probably would have went a lot better. Then after a while, she dumped me. It took a while to get over it. I was working, but even then, I’d be home, alone, I’d go out, alone, I hung out with one friend, I had work to distract me, it was a retail job, I’m not ready to give out specifics. So then finally, back in April 06, this girl who I met the night before, when I was really drunk, who was a now former friends then girl he was seeing, and this guy well, he could be and was a very manipulative person, and displayed those alpha qualities you describe, but the guy was for the most part a go nowhere loser, but he managed to almost always have a chick, anyways, the next night, where at his house, and she wants to do it, so we did. Then, nothing for a while, more depression over loneliness, deal with it by drinking, I’m 21 at this point, hang out with friends, but looking back, it wasn’t the best group of people, and all that. Then one night, things change from going from bad to worse….

        Well, I was with that said friend and that group of people I used to hang out with one night after work, we were drinking. Btw, I don’t drink anymore and have been totally sober two years now, this was back in 2007, and after all this, I still drank, and that did lead to other problems, moreso emotional ones than anything else. It didn’t interfere with work or anything, so, long story short, and not going to get into specifics right now, cause you never know who may be reading, I uh, I almost kill him in a fit of drunken rage, I won’t say how exactly, but I guarantee it was bad. What I did and how I handled it was wrong, and it took me a long time to admit that, not so much out of stubbornness, but more so, I was close with this person, and did a lot of things for him, and then he assaults me, and things escalated. I have not been in contact with this person since, and I really have no intentions too. Also, it might have been the worst, but it wasn’t the first time problems happened between me and him, when he would drink, he’d become a total asshole.

        So, things went from bad to worse. I now realize I did suffer from PTSD. Oh sure, work was a nice distraction, but out of that, very isolated, dealt with it by drinking a lot and buying stuff, filling the emptiness, got angry, etc.

        So, I think that def had an effect on getting close to others and causing trust issues, which it’s not as bad as it used to be, but there’s still some issues. In 2009, I got fired from my job, it wasn’t anything terrible, I merely got into a shouting match with a customer. I never threatened them, swore at them, or anything. I was trying to help the guy. And the environment there had been made to be very unfair. I wasn’t in school, and still living at home, and instead of finding another job and moving on, I went on unemployment money, which after what I had gone through, free money seemed like a fair enough justification, at the time. But eventually it runs out, and when it does, you’re still back at where you started. So with all that, still living at home, no job or car, which I did have a drunk driving accident, yeah, always problems with self esteem, confidence, comparing yourself to others, I’d say more but I think this is enough, all of that and thensome is probably why I haven’t had sex in such a long time. My last gf was two years ago actually, we almost did it, but it didn’t happen. Well, that’s a whole other story, nothing bad, just, idk.

        Plus, the whole alpha/beta thing, not being shown how to be alpha yourself, but seeing others, and you being like, “oh that’s not me, etc”. Well, there you have it.

      • Dawn:
        I hear this from women all the time, but I see exactly the opposite in actual practice. Of course women who go for these abusive jerks will always justify it on some flimsy grounds that ‘he’s really a nice guy’ or ‘has a few issues’.

        Also, just check out any internet list of the ’10 Hottest Guys’. You don’t see anything there but a bunch of punks who look either like pimps or the pimp’s enforcers!

    • Oh yeah, don’t bother to dwell on the reasoning of these jezebel college feminism, they don’t give 2 shits about the struggles of men. They say that feminism is all about equality, but don’t let them fool ya. If you want equality, you will call yourself equalists. They only look for women’s issues and most of the time, this effect has bad consequences for men. (ever heard of elevatorgate ? You should look that up.

      It feels like i can’t make any statement aboyt women without me being called a misognistic or that i should check my privileges :/

      • I agree on the problem with websites like Jezebel and today’s Feminism. I used to firmly consider myself a feminist because I am very in favor of equal rights and that was what it meant to me. As a woman I saw that there were inequalities I didn’t want and I wanted to fight them…but getting deeper into the community made me ashamed to call myself one.
        Now I think that sexism is a very real thing, and that women don’t have the equal rights they deserve…But the angry, bitter, borderline misandristic and hateful things I have heard from “feminists” don’t speak for equality at all. Feminists bash men for answering interview questions for a magazine about PERSONALITY TRAITS they like in women!
        A guy says “I think I’d love to date a girl who would like to play video games with me” or “It would be really cool if my girlfriend liked my friends” or even “I want to find a girl who laughs at my jokes” and suddenly the crazy feminists rear their head and call these guys “misogynists”! “OH SO IT’S ALL ABOUT WHAT YOU WANT YOU MISOGYNISTIC PRICK. GTFO.” Yes thank you crazy feminist you are making the rest of us look really great for hating on men for innocent things. I have even seen women bash men for trying to get behind the feminist movement, SUPPORTING THEM. It’s nonsense. You don’t get equal rights treating anyone like dirt. It’s not okay for men to say things like that about women, then it’s not okay for women to say those things about men. THAT is what “equal” means. Hate only breeds hate.
        I now firmly consider myself an “equalist” because I refuse to associate myself with the women who took something that was supposed to stand for equality and turned it into something awful. I also apologize on their behalf and hope you don’t think all women, even women who call themselves “feminists” (who, like me, may have no idea how hateful that group is) think, feel and act in this way.
        We should all be able to communicate with one another peacefully and without nastiness regardless of gender and today’s feminism doesn’t understand that the reprehensibility for that lies with them too.
        Sorry that was a bit long, just wanted to say my piece.

      • Oh I hear that. You’re totally right. Yeah, what privilege? I don’t have any magical privileges they seem to think I magically possess. I probably do read them to much. I read to know what’s being said, I pretty much disagree with 99.9% of it, and it just fuels my anger at it all. I did hear about elevatorgate, um, I gotta say though, that did seem not right to me. In that, the guys actions were not. Yeah, I know I’ll probably get shit for that, but I mean, that’s not something to take lightly. Maybe she was over exaggerating. I’m trying to think of how to best word this, like, ok, yes, he asked her up to his room, she said no, it does sound like a case of what did he say, how did he say it? I’m not trying to jump to conclusions here, but it does sound questionable.

    • That is a real sad story man (not the least bit sarcastic, all the stuff you have gone through sucks) but I think that all of those issues in your life have more to do with your dating prospects than any thing else. You really need to clean that stuff up first if you want to find someone that would be good for you. Aside from that getting away from all of the bad things in your past will make you feel a lot better too. You should find more things to involve your self with like the show! It sounds like that helped a lot and that is a great way to meet more people to work on your social skills. I can also tell you carry a lot of anger. I can tell because I am prone to that happening as well. Especially when I was younger. I promise though it can be dealt with.

      Also personal opinion here but I would stay away from anyone not somewhat close to your age. My rule of thumb is start with three years and add 1 for each decade you have been alive is the best possible way to ensure having lots in common with a girl. Those are the best kind of relationships. I have never really had problems dating but have noticed this in my experiences.

      Good luck, Don’t give up, and work incredibly hard on you (not to find women, just because you deserve it)

  20. You’ve said that women who don’t find partners within your system within 30 dates would be fired/banned for a period of time. Would that also apply to the men in your system? They could also be scammers. And how would your system protect women (or men) who share your difficulty in forming relationships?

    I personally see too many problems with this for it to work well, to be honest.

    • I don’t see how men could be scammers in the same way women could if men don’t get paid.

      However, screening before the dates actually begin would try to weed out players. Also, if a guy just sleeps around with women in the program and doesn’t communicate with them later he’d be immediately kicked out. They would have every right to report this.

  21. You seem very uneducated. All of your answers are not very well thought out. Anyways, if you have self-esteem issues, look ugly, can’t find someone to love you for any reason, then fucking figure it out and WORK on those issues. Also, try online dating and look for someone to date/fuck you. How is it any different from your weird ass program? Someone will eventually find you good enough. The problem is the girls and guys on those dating sites are usually not very attractive and have problems of their own (hence they need a dating site to find a mate). Jeez, get off your ass and work on your personal problems.

      • Reading through old stuff to throw back in Eric’s face and noticed this. Were those questions addressed because it was a lot of the same stuff I asked so I am curious. I have already seen answers for many of my questions so no need to address something in there you answered somewhere else.

        Also Dawn’s post above was great about that small percentage of hyperfeminists. Yeah those people suck. I think ill have to start calling myself an equalist as well.

  22. Would your program at least give “incels” a little bit of training in how to behave in public before getting a date? I ask because of something I saw last night while out with a few friends. We noticed what was obviously a blind date going very wrong, with the man staring intently at the woman’s breasts while she attempted conversation. Eventually she got fed up, snapped her fingers in his face and said “Hey creep, the tits don’t talk”, tossed down some money and left. The man just sat looking dumbfounded. I’d hope that the incels who might take advantage of your program would get a little education before getting signed up for a first date.

  23. One of the many mistakes that misogynists make is that they assume that the views of extreme radical feminists are representative either of feminists or,in extremis, women in general.

    Which is about as nonsensical as claiming that Stormfront is representative of the views of the white community, or that anyone politically to the left of the Republican Party is a communist. Or indeed claiming that all women will behave absolutely identically in any given situation.

    • Oh no doubt they are totally generalizing and projecting but I personally have met a couple of women like that and needless to say we were not friends. I meet guys like that too and we are not friends either. I just don’t like hate for the sake of hate.

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